No Senior Boys Allowed in JV race - 10/23/09
Note: Updates since 10/23/09 (creation date of this document) are in colors
JV is just one name, they are also referred to as: Open, Reserve, Varsity B, Non-Varsity, Novice, Exhibition
- Red was on 10/27/09
Two resolutions came thru on 10/30/09 - see the bottom of this page.
Update made on 12/29/09
Update made on 01/26/10
Past Section & League By-Laws (added on 12/11/09)
League 1963
Section 1970
League 1974
League 1974
XC By-Laws 1993
XC By-Laws 1994
XC By-Laws 1999
League Constitution (2005)
League Constitution (2008)
XC By-Laws 2007
Other Sections Constitution/By-Laws(added 12/15/09)
SJS has JV competition thru their Section meet. Seniors allowed to run JV (C-1-b).
NS has JV competition thru their Section meet. Seniors not allowed to run JV (301.3), but are allowed to run in Section Finals Open race.
SF has non-varsity competition thru their Section meet. Seniors allowed to run non-varsity (p122).
Oakland does not have a website so unable to verify one way or the other.
NCS does not recognize or define JV at the section level. VERRRRY slow to load (10 min). Seniors run at the League JV level.
CCS does not recognize or define JV at the section level. Seniors run at the League JV level (except SCVAL).
CS has JV competition thru League Meets. Seniors allowed to run JV (1.2.3).
LA has JV & Novice competition at Duals. Not defined who can run JV/Novice. No results, that I can find, to verify one way or the other (Section X).
SS allows Exhibition competition as long as they meet elegibility requirements, but XC is not included in the allowable sports (Section 500-D). League results have seniors in JV race.
SDS allows Exhibition competition as long as they meet elegibility requirements, appears to be the same as SS & State guidelines (Section 500-D). Mention of JV but not defined (Section XI-J). League results have seniors in JV race.
CIF allows Exhibition competition as long as they meet elegibility requirements, appears to be the same as SS & SDS (Section 500-D).
Emails on minutes regarding Varsity, JV & F/S, both genders (added 12/14/09)
String of emails from Milpitas AD stating that Seniors cannot run JV and responces.
Court Injunction allows Seniors to run JV for 2009.
BOM approves Varsity, JV & F/S, both genders (Dec 12, 2007)
Commissioner acknowledges that BOM approves Varsity, JV & F/S, both genders (Dec 04, 2008)
On Friday (10/23), I spent 45 minutes having a very productive conversation with SCVAL League
Commissioner Tony Nunes. I want to state, Tony's job as Commissioner is to see
that all coaches, in all sports within the SCVAL, adhere to the SCVAL Constitution.
Tony represents the Board Of Managers (BOM) which is comprised of the 14 Principals
within the SCVAL. He does his best to administer the Constitution in the way that
he believes represents the BOM wishes. With that being said, I will now, in great
detail, go through what Tony and I talked about and our understandings and interpretations
of the SCVAL Constitution and the XC By-Laws...
Notes: Unless otherwise stated, all references are for XC and no other sports.
The SCVAL Constitution (2005) was written 17 years ago (per the Commissioner).
The Commissioner has stated that Senior Boys cannot compete in JV Competition.
He bases this decision on the statement within the Constitution (Article IV, Section 2)
"Following are the official classifications in each sport. No other teams are authorized.
Cross Country (Boys) Varsity/FS".
The coaches contend that Article IV, Section 3.1 overrides this statement. It reads:
"Junior Varsity competition shall be limited to ninth, tenth and eleventh grade students
unless specified in sports by-laws."
What would be the point of even having this in the Constitution if the BOM didn't want each
sport to have the flexibity to define certain situations that are unique for each sport.
The BOM had the foresight to include this statement so that all sports, not just XC, would be
able to accommodate these unique situations.
The Commissioner says the above statement ("unless specified in sports by-laws") was included
in the Constitution for wrestling only.
Why would something be put in the Constitution that was meant for a specific sport without stating
that it was for that particular sport (i.e., wrestling)? The Constitution is a document that is
intended for ALL sports. Something that is meant for a specific sport would be included in that
specific sport's by-laws. Hence, another reason why the statement, "unless specified in sports by-laws",
should be in the Constitution so that these specific items are addressed in the by-laws and not cluttering
up the Constitution. As it is written in the 2008 version, Wrestling can no-longer hold their JV
competition with seniors.
It should also be noted that the statement, "unless specified in sports by-laws", is not present in
the 2008 Constitution but is present in the 2005, 2004 and the ORIGINAL Constitution.
When was this statement removed? In the Dec 2007 BOM minutes there was no vote to
have this statement removed. There wasn't even a mention in the minutes regarding this statement.
It is stated in Article I, Section 2, "Each motion to amend the by-laws shall include the date on
which the law becomes effective.". It appears that the above statement was inadvertently removed
from the Constitution. If it was voted on in December of 2005 or 2006, then we would like to receive the BOM
minutes for both of those years. It should also be noted that Article IX, Section 3 states, "Refer to sports
by-laws for any possible additions to Division finals.", which the XC by-laws clearly state there will be races
for Varsity, F/S & JV for both genders as well as an Open race for those not competeing in the Vatsity or
F/S divisions.
The Commissioner states that other than Wrestling, no other sport allows seniors to compete as JV.
If wrestling allows it then why can't XC? We also want to point out that XC has been running Seniors in the
"Open" (JV) race at the League Finals since 1967 and the XC by-laws state in Article IV, Section 3,
"An open race shall be run at the Division Finals. Any student who has not participated in the official
Boy's Varsity and Boys' Frosh/Soph races may enter." This statement is still in the XC by-laws today.
This is not new to the XC by-laws. It was there in 1999 by-laws and if we were to continue digging I imagine it could
be found in by-laws from the 1970's - prior to the Constitutions' existence. We believe that the BOM back when
the Constitution was written were aware of this and, hence, an additional reason why the statement,
"unless specified in sports by-laws", was included in the original Constitution.
The Commissioner said that if he knew that seniors were competeing in the JV race, he would've told us to stop.
We have been sending League Final results to the Commissioner for at least the last 10 years.
This should not be a surprise. This practice has been going on since 1967 -- both the "Open" (JV)
race and the practice of running seniors in this race.
What's wrong with Senior Boys running in a JV race? Senior Girls are allowed to.
When the Constitution was written, the BOM did not want to take away an opportunity from a 9th/10th
grader. The belief was that, as a senior, they should be competing at the Varsity level
or not at all. In XC, seniors are not taking away any opportunities. XC has a F/S championship
and therefore the 9th/10th graders still have their moment for glory. Since the F/S race allows unlimited
entries, it is conceivable that the JV race might be made up of only 11th graders if seniors are not allowed to
compete. We the coaches, athletes and parents don't understand the logic since no opportunity is being taken away from anyone.
Why were we informed of this "new rule" (no seniors in the JV race) only 2 weeks prior to League Finals.
As stated above, the Commissioner says he was not aware of the fact that we were running senior boys in the
JV race (even though it's been happening for over 40 years) and had he known he would have told us to stop -
which is what he is doing now. The athletes have stated to the coaches that this is unfair. All coaches believe
that we were (and we still do believe this) that we have been following both the Constitution and the by-laws.
The Commissioner has determined that this is what the BOM would want and, hence, this is what he has decided.
Do the other nine (9) Leagues in CCS have a rule prohibiting seniors from running in a JV race?
No.
What race can these senior boys run in?
No race. Their season would be over after this week's competitions. This will effect approximately 60 athletes
within the SCVAL.
What might happen if my school runs a senior boy in the JV race?
In anticipation of this question, the Commissioner gave me the section of the Constitution that describes
the ramifications for violations.
What can I do?
As stated above, the Commissioner is only trying to do what he believes the BOM would want him to do. If the
BOM were to tell him that their wishes are something different, then I can only assume that he would do what
his constituents want him to do. The BOM consists of all Principals. So call the Principal of your school.
Refer the Principal to this link for more background on what has happened in the past. Principals are
the ones who can make recommendations to the Commissioner. Tell the Principal what you think. Recommend
a "stay of execution" for this year so the BOM can review what they really intend/want. Two weeks' notice is
unacceptable and damaging. In the words of one parent,
"It is totally unfair and unethical to change it now."
Let's not kill the "Hopes & Dreams" of our athletes. More than just the seniors are affected by this decision.
Why should senior runners who are on strong XC teams be penalized? There are some schools whose
tenth fastest (or more) runner could beat another school's #1 runner, and yet they won't get to compete.
For that matter, why should ANY senior, on any team, be penalized?
Hank Lawson, Lynbrook XC coach
10/30/09
Coaches
All seniors will be able to run at League Finals on Tue.
There are two scenarios that you need to look at and decide on.
Please do a REPLY ALL so that all coaches will see what your thoughts are.
1) BOM decided that senior boys will all be allowed to run in the
Varsity race along with your designated Varsity runners. You must
designate who your 7 Varsity runners are and all the others will be non-scoring.
2) Some parents went to court this morning and they got a ruling
from the judge that states, "Senior Boys are allowed to compete at
the Junior Varsity level for the SCVAL Finals on Nov 3rd," (the
verbage may not be quite correct but you understand the message).
A PDF file of the ruling/injunction will be sent out to the BOM
(and coaches too I think) later today.
So now what do we do? I suggest you talk with your AD and/or Principal
and get their thoughts. I also suggest you talk to your senior boy
athletes that this will affect (afterall, shouldn't they have some say
in what they want, they're the ones be affected by this). That is what
I plan on doing today.
So do we do what the BOM is allowing us to do? Do we do what the
court ruling says? Do we all have to do the same thing? Thoughts?
12/29/09
Mercury News covers the on-going issue with a story on Nov 9.
From the Central Section XC By-Laws:
"1.2.3 Junior Varsity Entries- Anyone who does not qualify to run for the varsity team may run the junior varsity race."
http://www.cifcs.org/ConstitutionandBylaws/bylaws17.htm
1/26/10
On 1/21/10 the BOM met and were given a 5 minute presentation by a parent representative.
The presentation was based on their research and the following reseach by a few SCVAL coaches.
The CCS Commissioner was there and she will be conducting her own research in this matter and will report
back her findings to the BOM at their April 2010 meeting.
2/05/10
At the Jan meeting the presentation was done and the following letter was the follow up.
09/24/14
String of emails that confirms Seniors CAN run JV at meets outside of SCVAL meets.
From: "Cave, Kim"
To: ; "Pam Harris"
Cc:
Subject: RE: registration open?
Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 11:56 AM
Hi Andrew,
All of that did happen with Mtn. View and the SCVAL made that rule about Seniors not competing at
the JV level for any competition but there has been a change.
Any SCVAL school that competes in an Invitational outside of an SCVAL run event can have seniors
compete in the JV race. I just confirmed that with our
League Commissioner Tony Nunes.
Thanks,
Kim
From: Andrew Zaeske [mailto:azaeske@google.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 9:48 AM
To: Cave, Kim; Pam Harris
Subject: Fwd: registration open?
Hmm,
Hank seem to think this is a no go. See below. To be safe, I think we'll just follow the ruling. Make sense?
Andrew
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: hank lawson >
Date: Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 1:28 AM
Subject: Re: registration open?
To: azaeske@google.com
Kim is wrong (per the Commissioners ruling anyway). If she believes that it's ok, then please ask
her to call Tony (the Commissioner) and ask him if at Invitationals it's allright for seniors to
run JV - all of the coaches would love this to be true but sadly, it isn't (once again, per Tony).
Per the link that is listed below:
The Commissioner has stated that Senior Boys cannot compete in JV Competition.
and this includes all invitationals.
Yes, sort of. Mt View was the only team allowed to run seniors in the JV race that year for they
had a court order that said they could.
No other school had a court order so no other school could run seniors in the JV race so yes,
they trounced everyone. But I believe they
would've won even if other schools did enter seniors in the JV race because they were THAT good.
hank
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Zaeske
To: hank lawson
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: registration open?
Though, I just asked my AD, Kim Cave, and she said that if an invitational allows seniors to run
in JV races, that its allowed. But definitely not in League meets. Is that your understanding?
Does this date back to when Mt View trounced everybody in a League champ JV race with a bunch of fast seniors?
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 10:39 AM, hank lawson > wrote:
Seniors have not been allowed to compete as JV's in any sport (except wrestleing) since Fall '09 in the SCVAL:
http://www.prepcaltrack.com/ATHLETICS/XC/2009/nosenior.htm
We are not just the only League in CCS with this rule but the only League in the entire State
(other states do have this rule but get around it by calling it "Open", which we can't do in CCS).
This was a mandate passed down by the SCVAL League Commissioner. The logic is that JV is meant
for future Varsity competitors and if you're a senior and not on Varsity then you really shouldn't
be on the team for you are taking up another potential varsity athletes spot on the JV team.
This may be true for "cut sports" but since XC & track are no-cut sports, it doesn't seem to make sense.
None of the SCVAL coaches agree with this ruling but we have little say over what the Commissioner dictates.
hank
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Zaeske
To: Ron DiMaggio ; Hank Lawson
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: registration open?
Thanks very much Ron. I'll enter my top 7 in the champ and then 7 more seniors in the regular varsity.
Much appreciated.
Yes, its a bit odd. I'm cc'ing Hank Lawson who's been around much longer than I to comment on why.
Though he may not know the reason either.
Hank?
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 8:13 PM, Ron DiMaggio > wrote:
That is the first I have ever heard of that in the CCS. Your league must be the only one that
does not allow Seniors in the JV race. I am not sure why that is the case when the Varsity
only consists of 7 runners. Do they have a reason for this???
I would more than happy to have your Top 7 run in the Boys Championship Varsity, and then
your other Senior boys in the Boys Varsity.
You can decide for yourself who runs where.
Ron
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 7:54 PM, Andrew Zaeske > wrote:
Thanks, but unfortunately, our league does not allow seniors to run in a "JV" race - anything
named "JV". I'm not sure why. To work around this, some meets (Lowell) have allowed me to run
more than 7 in the varsity race or they have let me run 7 in the championship race and 7 more
in the regular varsity race. Would this be possible for your meet?
I understand if you cannot do this, but I figured I'd ask one more time.
thanks for your consideration,
Andrew Zaeske
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:20 PM, Ron DiMaggio > wrote:
Your Top 7 run in the Champ Varsity race, or the Boys Varsity... All other Juniors and
Seniors run in the JV race, Soph Boys in the Sophomore race then Frosh Boys in the Boys
Freshman race. You do not need to tell me the number of runners you having running in
each race at this time.
Please only enter runners that will be competing on Oct. 11th. This way more athletes
and teams will be able to register.
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Andrew Zaeske > wrote:
Oh ok, so to be clear, you will have a championship varsity race this year and if we
want to run it, we just run a team of 7 in it?
Can we run a team of 7 in both the championship varsity boys and regular varsity boys? Our
district/league has rules that say seniors cannot race in anything named "JV". So that would help.
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:10 PM, Ron DiMaggio > wrote:
you do not need to register a Championship Varsity or what race they will be running in.
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Andrew Zaeske > wrote:
thanks! works now.
Though I didn't see an option for requesting entry into the Boys Championship Varsity race.
And do I need to designate which runners run in which race? I didn't see a way to do that on the site.
thanks. sorry for being clueless on this.
Andrew Zaeske
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Ron DiMaggio > wrote:
please try it again, i think I fixed the problem
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Andrew Zaeske > wrote:
Hmm, still not seeing it open for me. I've attached a screenshot showing "This meet does
not yet have events. Registration begins 09/03/14 at 10:00 AM."
Perhaps does this have something to do with me being a new coach for Los Altos this year.
Our former coach, Dan Oren, registered us in previous years.
thanks,
Andrew Zaeske
650 248-9671
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Ron DiMaggio > wrote:
Try entering your athletes now. i think I fixed the problem
On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 4:24 PM, Andrew Zaeske > wrote:
Hi Coach,
I didn't see the Serra registration open yet on directathletics.net
and wondered if I was doing something wrong or needed to be added as a school somehow?
Thanks,
Andrew Zaeske
Los Altos High School